to: e-mail wars
MORE E-MAIL WARS: Whether the Southern Poverty Law Center is a hate group
(August 20, 2010, to August 23, 2010)
Note: After taking the summer off from racial discussions, Bill McGaughey and Michael Cavlan ( in red) engaged the DFL crowd on sensitive issues related to race and to "conspiracy theories" on the Minnesota e-democracy and US e-democracy discussion lists. The discussion became quite nasty toward the end. The selected postings to this forum are listed in chronological order.
From: Wizard Marks Date: Aug. 20 2:07 PM
The Southern Poverty Law Center (www.splcenter.org) has catalogued the top ten conspiracy theories promulgated and kept alive by the far right.
From: Jimmy Mason Date: Aug. 20 3:30 PM
1st, Much of this list is fact, not theory. 2nd, ask yourself "Is this not the exact same list the "far right" has accused the "socialist left" of now for years?"
* Now 9/11 "truthers" are a "right wing" thing? Seriously? The right has been railing on the left for supporting 9/11 conspiracies for years. In my mind " both" parties are making a concerted effort to paint anyone who asks honest questions as a lark.
* North American Union? Did the "libs" not rail about George Bush secretly signing the blueprint agreements for this union in Florida some years back? Didn't the "left" freak out when both former Mexican president Vincente Fox admitted the plan as well as the former Canadian Prime Minister? It's laughable that this is now a "right wing conspiracy theory".
* Fema camps? The camps are not a theory, they're a fact. 100's of them were built under Bush. No one denies this fact, because it's a FACT. A look at google maps will settle any debate. The "left" went on and on about the system of trains built to connect the camps, the millions of coffins, etc (and with good reason!!) during the Bush admin. Now that Obama is running the camps, it becomes "right wing paranoia"? LOL!!!!
* Combat troops on US soil? Again, this is not a theory, but rather a fact. The troops are stationed in Georgia somewhere (it's been a couple years and my memory has faded) and have been trained to "suppress civil unrest". It was done under the watch of BushCo and was even reported in "Stars and Stripes". It canbe found online with a simple Google search. It was the "lefties" who screamed " The traitor Bush is trampling on the Constitution" when it occurred, not the " right"....again, for no apparent reason the "left" has randomly decided toaccuse the "right" of this. It's laughable.
* Door to door gun confiscation. Again this is fact, not theory and it was first reported and made an issue by the "left", when after hurricane Katrina, Xe (nee: Blackwater Security) went door to door confiscating peoples legal firearms, as did police and National Guard units. The same happened in Iowa a couple years back during the floods.
* In the end, we again see the Dems and Reps have an identical agenda, just like their identical "globalism" agenda and their identical foreign policy agenda.
From: Bill McGaughey Date: Aug. 20 4:54 PM
Despite its acceptance by the media and people like Wizard Marks, the Southern Poverty Law Center is not an unbiased source of information but shows signs of being itself a hate group. Its function is to compile political enemies lists and induce fear and loathing.
I believe in a conspiracy relating to the events on 9/11. It's not that I want to believe in unseen forces orchestrating events but that the facts clearly suggest that the Twin Towers fell down because of controlled demolitions even though they were also struck by airplanes. How else do you account for the fact that another building, Building Seven, also fell down in a similar way even though no airplane hit it or that residues of the chemicals used in controlled demolitions were found in the World Trade Center rubble?
It is myriad details such as these that lead reasonable persons to doubt the official versions of 9/11 - and I doubt that all the ridicule heaped on " Truthers" by SPLC and other reputation-besmirching organizations will derail their request for a new and more honest inquiry into the 9/11 events.
From: Rick Mons Date: Aug. 20 10:13 PM
This topic was initially posted in the Minnesota Politics Forum by WizardMarks and clearly is outside that forum's topical scope. (The original post is here: http://bit.ly/by7B5m and the report referenced by WizardMarks that details "far right conspiracy theories" is here: http://bit.ly/aq4hoG)
Normally, I'd just move on -- but Bill McGaughey then responded. Unfortunately, McGaughey doesn't provide any refutation of the points raised in the linked Southern Poverty Law Center report but merely accuses the SPLC of being "a hate group." Holding a mirror up to true hate groups
should be applauded and not subject to false criticism.
From: David Tilsen Date: Aug. 20 10:30 PM
I just can't help myself. Bill you have just had, what we all like to call, your Bachman moment. Ok, I just want to understand, SPLC is a hate group, 911 was caused by domestic Quasi governmental domestic action etc. Etc. It is not that it is not possible for a conspiracy to be true, it is just that it is very difficult to keep it a secret.
I Have a lot of friends that believe in conspiracies around the kennedy assassination , the welstone plane crash, alien abductions, and the possibility That Elvis, mj, Hendrix, Joplin, hitler (you fill it in) is alive and well in brazil, Argentina or a secret base on the far side of the moon.
I do not deny that these things are possible, just that our fantasy lives should be kept out of the world of policy making and serious political activities. extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Perhaps you believe that the earth is only 6000 years old and humans lived together with dinosaurs?
From: Michael Cavlan Date: Aug. 21 0:02 AM
People who support the status quo smear those who have serious concerns on these issues. In other words completely disconnected from ordinary working class people.
The Southern Poverty folks are establishment people. After all I looked at their list of "right wing conspiracy theory folks."
Chem Trails- Check, I have concerns Martial Law- After the RNC in 2008, any questions? Check, I have concerns FEMA Camps- Check, oh and it was that wacky liberal Oliver North who instituted the idea with his Rex 84 program.
9-11. Check, I have very serious concerns about the long series of unanswered questions of that day. As an aside, I was a Nurse who treated some of the people from the Pentagon shortly after the attacks.
Population Control- Blacks and Tuskegee until the 70's. check, I have serious concerns.
HAARP- Check, I have concerns.
Federal Reserve- Questioned by Ron Paul AND that other right wing conservative Dennis Kucinich. CAmericanheck, I have concerns.North American Union- Those wacky liberals Bill Clinton and Al Gore, NAFTA, GATT, IMF etc etc. Check, I have concerns.
Here are a couple more wacky conspiracies.
The elections of 2000 and 2004 were stolen by the use of blatant voter fraud, voter suppression and the use of electronic Diebold voting machine with untraceable counts. With the complicity of silence of the Democratic Party. Or this one. The Democrats and Republicans are owned by the same corporate owners who also own the corporate media. That we do not have an actual representative democracy but instead have "The best democracy money can buy" to quote journalist Greg Palast who can't get a job reporting in the United States.
So I guess I am a "right wing conspiracy theorist." Or maybe I am just not a supporter of the corporate corrupted, pro-war two party system. Mr Mason, you are right. Both political parties are bought and paid for and failing us all.
That is not a conspiracy theory, that is reality..
From: Bill McGaughey Date: Aug. 21 09:21 AM
With respect to Southern Poverty Law Center being a "hate group", I suppose the ultimate proof lies in the ability to peer inside the hearts and minds of the people behind it. I do not have that ability. What I do state on the basis of external evidence is that the SPLC deals in demonization of individuals and groups on one side of political issues such as Civil Rights. I wrote: " Its function is to compile political enemies lists and induce fear and loathing."
If SPLC were instead an organization devoted to "debunking" arguments brought by these demonized groups, I would have no problem. But the purpose of demonization is that you dismiss whatever the group says instead of looking at arguments. That's the approach that has been taken too often and a reason for the political polarization that we see in our culture.
Tilsen says I have had my "Bachmann moment" - again, demonization rather rational argument - and brings in people who believe that Elvis and other dead celebrities are alive and perhaps living on the far side of the moon - ridiculing me rather than dealing with my arguments. No, I don't believe Elvis is alive. I'm not familiar with many of the groups and issues on SPLC's list.
What I do believe is that the World Trade Center towers fell straight to the ground because of controlled demolitions rather than burning jet fuel. Think of it. You've seen the video of the two towers as they began to fall. After standing intact for an hour or so, the tower suddenly plunged to the
ground. The fall was even on all sides. If the fall were caused by burning jet fuel, wouldn't you expect a partial collapse first in the area where the fuel was burning followed by a more general collapse? No, this did not happen.
We're all seen video of buildings that were brought down through controlled demolitions. Dan Rather, reporting live on 9/11, said that's what he was reminded of as he watched the video.
In addition, there are many, many other pieces of evidence to suggest controlled demolition - traces of nanothermite in the rubble, fire fighters who said they heard explosions inside the building, a pool of molten metal in the sub-basement, etc.
Yes, one would expect that someone on the inside would have come forward to disclose the conspiracy but aren't members of mafia-like organizations bound by codes of secrecy whose violation is punishable by death? What is disturbing is how the major media refuse to investigate the 9/11 anomalies and how the courts refuse to allow official investigations. Something smells here. Even if you think the "truthers" are crazy, couldn't you at least indulge them in an honest investigation and, perhaps, put their questions to rest? In my book, greater knowledge of the truth is good..
From: Wizard Marks Date: Aug. 21 10:20 AM
I'm not surprised that Mr. McGaughey, when mildly confronted with the most popular conspiracy theories, proposed yet another conspiracy theory. SPLC, a legitimate NGO, keeps tabs on dangerous hate groups. Twisting that into the accusation that SPLC is a hate group is, of course, par for the course, a part of the paranoia that fuels the fringes.
I'm not surprised that Mr. Cavlan points out that SPLC is establishment, even though, as a nurse, Mr. Cavlan works for the establishment and collects a decent salary from it as well. And of course, were I sick, I'd go right to the establishment doctors and nurses for relief from what ails me. So would he. Mr. Mason is new to e-democracy, pointing out, though badly, the kernel of truth: At some point, the fringe right and the fringe left meet. Hollywood makes a fortune out of exploiting fringe theories, sometimes unearthing a nugget or two of probability on the way.
To the mother whose newborn was taken away from her by the state, SPLC successfully worked to return her infant to her. The "Labor contractors" who defrauded guest worker teachers in Louisiana were stopped from further predation. The hate group members who murdered two policemen were tracked and can no longer murder in complete secrecy.
Southern Poverty Law Center is a watchdog. While it cannot keep people safe, it can contest the hateful way in which people of color, women, immigrants, and poor people are treated and, in this real world where real people are hurt or killed, SPLC can sometimes stop the behavior. Before SPLC came into existence, it was left to individuals with conscience to defend, for example, the Chicago 7 or those at Wounded Knee in 1973. Those of us who are old enough remember seeing Bobby Seal bound and gagged by order of a judge in a Chicago courtroom. We remember the terrible bloodbath at Wounded Knee.
There are eight identified hate groups in Minnesota, two of them in Minneapolis, one of them in the beleaguered Northside, one in Burnsville, one in Rochester, one in Austin, and one in Forest Lake. Two of these groups have presses to spread their message of hatefulness. I personally, have seen the skinheads in action, shouting at Russell Banks in a Peavey Plaza event, to "go back where he came from." Ironically, Banks was standing in the place where his ancestors came from when accosted.
SLC is not unbiased. It's bias is toward real people who are injured by members of hate groups acting out of that hate. Those of us who are not conspiracy theorists need to know about this.
From: Matt Perry (forum moderator) Date: Aug. 21 11:43 AM
This topic and the subsequent posts are not within the scope of the forum.
This topic is more appropriate for the US Issues Forum. Minnesota Politics & Issues Forum member Rick Mons has taken the discussion there. You can find that discussion here: http://tinyurl.com/2fu5elf
I do not expect to see any further posts in this topic thread. This forum's purpose is "for the sharing of information on and discussion of Minnesota politics and public policy." http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mn-politics/charter
Please respect the rules of the forum by keeping topics and posts within the scope of the forum.
From: Michael Cavlan Date: Aug. 21 1:50 PM
I am not at all surprised at this response Wizard. Not at all. When establishment liberals get challenged they tend to get snarky and a little defensive. Calling others names such as "fringe." Then put out some facts to show their "lefty street cred."
In regards to Russell Means and skinheads, well I am an old "sharpie" ARA type skinhead. As such I was one of the 200 people who came out confronted the Nazi skinheads who showed up in south Minneapolis last year. I guess us "fringe" lefties (or are we right wing conspiracy theory types?) have some uses. After all, the comfortable progressives were too busy, sitting in coffee shops in Uptown, sipping on lattees and discussing politics.
To bring this back to the discussion though, this whole concept really shows the class divide on the left. After all many folks in poorer neighborhoods have no real problem in believing these ideas. In fact ask Russell Means and AIM about the FBI, then ask someone from the suburbs and you will get wildly different perspectives on the legality and credibility of the FBI.
Rappers and Hip Hop activists such as Paris or Eminem have no problem in talking about 9-11, the NWO and other "far right wing" ideas. They reflect the thinking in poorer neighborhoods. Something the the Southern Poverty Law Center should know.
However, this has become a "talking point" of the Democratic Party and their legions of apologists. Try and tie any who critique the "far left" to the far right tea party movement. That is IMHO what this is all really about. Not understanding that working class folks are meeting and coming to the same conclusion in regards to the two party system. No matter the machinations of Dick Army, Sarah Palin, George Soros and Rahm Emmannuel.
Keeping up the Kabuki Theatre image of pseudo opposition to each other.
From: Jimmy Mason Date: Aug. 21 2:38 PM
The SPLC really is a joke and it'd be funny if it was now staus quo. If this preposterous list doesn't discredit the SPLC would can?
It's very simple...the SPLC earns money by creating new "hate groups" to monitor. Big money...and they wouldn't make any money if everything was cool and calm.
The real irony is these rich, white, establishment types labeling groups like tea party as racist, when in actuality the tea party is much more diverse than the SPLC. The SPLC have not one single solitary person of color in management. Imagine...not one single Black, American Indian, Asian, East Indian, Latino, etc. Not one. These are the guys who decide who's racist and who's not, lol..
From: Joe Nathan Date: Aug. 21 3:01 PM
Jimmy wrote, in part, "The SPLC have not one single solitary person of color in management. Imagine...not one single Black, American Indian, Asian, East Indian, Latino, etc. Not one."
I looked at their website www.splcenter.org/who-we-are/leadership One of the top six people listed and pictured is clearly African American (Ms. Brooks, director of outreach) One of the next five listed is named "Monica Rodriguez" - she is director of a project on immigrant women. I suspect she is Hispanic, although there is no picture of her, I suspect she is Hispanic.
I've used the "Teaching Tolerance" magazine with students because it does feature various examples of how to promote understanding among others. I consider it a valuable resource.
From: Bill McGaughey Date: Aug. 21 3:24 PM
The moderator has asked that the discussion of "far right conspiracies" be moved to the U.S. forum.
Wizard Marks posted the original message listing ten conspiracy theories that the Southern Poverty Law Center finds most significant. I responded by suggesting that, pretending to fight hate, this organization itself pursues a hate-driven agenda.
In response to this, Wizard Marks wrote: "I'm not surprised that Mr. McGaughey, when mildly confronted with the most popular conspiracy theories, proposed yet another conspiracy theory. SPLC, a legitimate NGO, keeps tabs on dangerous hate groups. Twisting that into the accusation that SPLC is a hate group is, of course, par for the course, a part of the paranoia that fuels the fringes."
I respond as follows: I'm unaware of having proposed another conspiracy theory. I deny that I am "twisting" anything, or am paranoid, or part of any " fringe" that exists outside Wizard Marks' own mind.
Wizard Marks has a habit of utterly condemning people whose views differ from her own. For example, on August 9th she wrote: "Given the situation and the dismal group of candidates from the Republican Party and the Independents, one of the DFLers is going to win the primary." In other words, she is saying all nine people who ran for governor in the Republican and Independence Party primaries are "dismal." Nothing more. They are people whose views, in Marks' opinion, deserve to be automatically dismissed.
It is this attitude which has made the political climate in Minnesota and elsewhere "dismal". There has to be some degree of respect for others in politics to have a healthy democracy.
I think the liberal/left started it. Back in the '60s, conservative Republicans were dismissed as "neanderthals". Ronald Reagan was merely an actor who needed someone else to give him a script in order to function in politics. However, Reagan turned out to be one of our more successful
presidents politically. He did have the ability to think on his own.
Now we have people idolizing Reagan and conservative talk radio. Demonization occurs in conservative circles as well. It's time for someone to emerge from the political left to critique Reagan's economic legacy - free trade, tax cuts for the rich, etc. - and put forth constructive proposals.
However, our politics is mired in demonization. Two of the main attack dogs are the Southern Poverty Law Center and the Anti-Defamation League. Humanity would benefit if leaders of these two organizations apologized to the public and then dissolved the organizations. Of course, that is not going to happen. What may happen, however, is that people will stop taking their statements at face value and recognize that the type of hate they peddle is not contributing to a better society. Humanity would do well to outgrow the moral dualism inherent in their world views.
We need to let all people speak their minds and be respectfully heard. Say "no" to demonization; "yes" to listening respectfully to all points of view. When violence is used to censor or promote opinions, then, of course, it's another matter.
From: Wizard Marks Date: Aug. 21 3:30 PM
Wow! Suddenly I’ve been catapulted into the comfortable middle class. My parents, had they lived to see me an adult, would have been so proud-- mystified, but proud. Considering that my mother, raised in an orphanage, barely managed to be working class, never earning more than $3,000 a year in her short life, while my father, who ran away from school at 11, was a petty criminal who, along with his father and a brother, ran a handbook, dealt in stolen goods, and sold dope, they would be astonished. In reality, I’m poor as a church mouse, disabled, and lesbian. My only leg up in this world is that I’m white, fairly intelligent, and have a flare for the English language in keeping with my Irish forbearers.
I admire the work of the Southern Poverty Law Center. It’s founder, Morris Dees, is a lawyer, son of an Alabama farmer. Before establishing SPLC, Dees had been a successful publisher in Montgomery, AL. Dees says of himself that he was greatly influenced by To Kill a Mockingbird (Harper Lee, 1960). Living in Montgomery, he cannot have failed to be influenced by the tumult of the Civil Rights Movement which swirled around that city.
Dees sold his publishing business to found SPLC with Joseph Levin, Jr., another young lawyer in Montgomery. Formally incorporated in 1971, the first president of it’s board was Julian Bond. Even though laws had been promulgated which interrupted the legal underpinnings of apartheid, the customs of Jim Crow still need to be routed. SPLC takes on pro bono cases which do, when won, create landmark decisions that rout Jim Crow and usher in civil rights in the American South and echo in the North as well.
SPLC is a civil rights organization, it’s mission is to make inroads in the customary behavior which keeps the most vulnerable citizens second class. It now has offices in Louisiana, Mississippi, and Florida and regularly challenges and wins redress in the courts for African Americans, immigrants, guest workers, women, and children. It has challenged hate groups and won awards which have bankrupted some of those organizations, belatedly bringing evil people to justice. It’s concentrated activity in civil rights has changed the legal landscape of the USA. The body of work of SPLC has amassed is awe-inspiring.
Even though SPLC has focused its work in the South, the decisions rendered by the US Supreme Court directly affect the quality of life for vulnerable people in Minnesota. The “hate map” in SPLC’s web site shows the nine known hate groups in Minnesota and their locations. The various legal entities in Minnesota are thus alerted so that when hate crimes occur, we are all better prepared to find the culprits. People who want to see apartheid routed donate money to SPLC. I daresay that most of those who donate to SPLC want to see fairness and justice be part of the law of the land. Not everyone who is wealthy or even comfortable is a horse's ass.
From: Rick Mons Date: Aug. 21 6:23 PM
I think this extract from Mr. McGaughey's post helps explain what his real agenda is.
On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Bill McGaughey <email obscured>> wrote: " There has to be some degree of respect for others in politics to have a
By way of background, Mr. McGaughey has become one of those perennial candidates so he can use whatever campaign he's currently involved in to put forth his own unique views of the world. He's run for mayor, US Congressperson, Lieutenant Governor, President (of the United States) and Senator. He's run without party affiliiation and as a Republican, a Democrat and as a member of Minnesota's Independence Party. A consistent theme in his campaigns is his unhappiness that the local media and the front-runners in his campaigns have essentially ignored his candidacy.
In 2002, Mr. McGaughey ran under the platform “I believe in the full citizenship, dignity, and equality of white males (and of everyone else, too).” He admits that he didn't run under that platform whilst campaigning in Louisiana "because it would look too much like a northerner pandering to
southern racists." Apparently Mr McGaughey was more comfortable in pandering to northern racists when he campaigned in Minnesota. He also complained that the Minneapolis Star-Tribune apparently concluded that he" was a racist-sexist bigot unfit to be taken seriously as a political candidate." (BTW, those are McGaughey's words -- not mine. see http://www.worldhistorysite.com/NIP/party.html)
So, it appears to me that Mr. McGaughey really just wants folks to acknowledge his role oh-so-serious role in politics and be afforded "some degree of respect."
Now, when it comes to those organizations that the Southern Poverty Law Center has identified as "hate organizations," I guess he just wants us to also afford them some respect. But it's not possible for me to respect views such as these:
* "(We are) not interested in the future or welfare of the mud races, and shuns race-mixing or any social intercourse whatsoever with the inferior mud races.”
*""It is time to fan the flames of anti-Semitism far and wide. It is time to expose the Jews as being the evil incarnate of the world."
*"I hate white people. All of them. Every last iota of a cracker, I hate it. We didn't come out here to play today."
I guess it must be easier for Mr. McGaughey to afford those viewpoints respect. Especially since he's comfortable and willing to pander to northern racists as he's implicitly acknowledged.
From: Bill McGaughey Date: Aug. 22 7:37 AM
Rick Mons (August 21, 6:23 p.m.) has posted a malicious message about me intending to demonize me by misrepresentation of my political views.
Mons purports to "explain what his (McGaughey's) real agenda is." Let me say at the outset that my real agenda is what I post, not what Mons chooses to read into it.
I have not complained that the front-runners ignored my candidacy. I have complained occasionally about media coverage - most notably, in the Congressional campaign. Even Keith Ellison admitted that in that instance I had been wronged.
I did not "pander to northern racists" in Minnesota. I did (in the mayoral campaign) intend to start an open and honest discussion of race. Mons' characterization of my intended constituencies as "racists" shows what is wrong with the current dynamic of race relations. I want an honest discussion, without regards to the racial or other identities of the people involved. I want all people to be treated with dignity and respect.
My campaigns have not been about demanding that people respect me personally. That would have to be earned. I have raised serious issues and if Mons wants to mock that, I can't stop him. But it reflects on him, not me.
The last three bulleted points bear little resemblance to anything that I have advocated in my campaigns. They represent Mons' malicious hallucinations.
In summary: This was a disgraceful performance on your part, Mons. You are part of the problem.
From: Wizard Marks Date: Aug. 22 9:49 AM
W. McGaughey: "the Southern Poverty Law Center is not an unbiased source of information but shows signs of being itself a hate group. Its function is to compile political enemies lists and induce fear and loathing."
The "political enemies" listed by SPLC are the KKK, Aryan Nation, neo-Nazis, Skin Heads, and other such groups which hold up the banner of serious hatefulness, Not only do they burn crosses on people's lawns and vandalize Jewish cemeteries, but they've been known to murder people.
McGaughey"s opinion would make no difference in the real world were it not for the fact that he is a perennial candidate for public office. i don"t expect a whole lot from candidates for office, but i do expect them to have the mother wit to shy away from statements that could as well be on the cover of the National Enquirer.
McGaughey wants to be taken seriously as a candidate, but he does everything he can to make himself laughable. I fully appreciate that third party candidates often throw their hats in the ring to make important points that neither the democrats or the republicans are willing to voice. Statements like the one quoted above do not meet that standard, but rank McGaughey as the comic relief
or the silly seasons.
From: Michael Cavlan Date: Aug. 22 12:04 PM
I will not respond to this the way I wanted because Matt has requested that we not, as it is not a Minnesota specific topic. My original post on attempting to tie " fringe" left wing analysis with the tea bag and Birther movement stands.
However to keep it Minnesota related there is indeed another "conspiracy theory" that we can talk about. That Minnesota Senator Paul Wellstone and his staff died in, lets say questionable circumstances and timing.
Ask many progressives in Minnesota and they will respond "Well of course I believe that Paul was taken out." It is a very common perception in some circles. Yet the establishment DFL and it's "leadership" ran from that issue and would never raise it, even as a question.
No wonder the DFL has a reputation of being cowards. One of their own, their best and brightest dies in very suspicious circumstances and timing yet they do not have the courage to ask for an investigation, a real investigation.
It is confirmed, the DFL establishment are cowards. In my own honest opinion of course. It also explains why they are always afraid of debates.
From: Marc Asch Date: Aug. 22 12:56 PM
Paul Wellstone died because he was being flown by two inadequately prepared pilots. The accident was well investgated and as a pilot the results, including the recreation was compelling. It was very sad for all involved.
Sent from my BlackBerry®.
From: Bill Kahn Date: Aug. 22 1:08 PM
This must be the day for all third party office seekers in Minnesota to self-destruct. First McGoughey, now Cavlan.
From: Bill McGaughey Date: Aug. 22 7:54 PM
There is a cowardly herd instinct at work here among three like-thinking posters (one in another forum) - Rick Mons, Wizard Marks, and Bill Kahn - who are disturbed by a challenge to their political world view. I have made such a challenge. Let me respond to several points:
Wizard Marks wrote that I am "the comic relief for the silly seasons." Fine, if she wants to laugh at me, there's no stopping her. I do not try to censor tastes in humor. Laugh your heart out, Wizard.
Bill Kahn wrote: "This must be the day for all third party office seekers in Minnesota to self-destruct. First McGoughey, now Cavlan." Neither Cavlan nor I have self-destructed. We made our points intelligently and I think this will have some effect, though not with the people who posted the derogatory messages. I'll take them on four at a time, if need be, and still get the better of the argument.
Rick Mons referred readers to several documents of mine which he said proved his points. That requires further explanation. He did not prove any of his points.
No, I think it was the right decision not to discuss race in a southern state such as Louisiana because historically there has been so much bad blood between northerners and southerners on this question. But Minnesota is the state where I live. I am part of this community. If I wanted to discuss race anywhere, it should be here.
Mons faults me for having said in 2002: "I believe in the full citizenship, dignity, and equality of white males (and of everyone else, too)." Yes, I said that then, and I still believe it. However Mons and others assume that because I advocate dignity for white males (or for white people) that I must hate blacks. I must be a racist. This is the kind of twisted logic that has brought race relations to such a bad place. White people are human beings, not carriers of some racial Original Sin.
I live in a neighborhood in Minneapolis where whites are less than one third of the population. I interact with black people every day and I think my relations with them are generally good. I notice that Mons lives in Shoreview where blacks - or "mud people" as he called them in his previous posting - are a much smaller part of the population. Did you move to Shoreview to flee these so-called "mud people", Mr. Mons. How dare you insinuate that I am a racist. You're merely staring at your own ideological belly-button and presuming to know something about the world.
Yes, I am taking an unpopular position in raising the subject of race in such a poisonous environment. The snakes have come out in force. But progress toward a better racial understanding - based on dignity for all people - has to start somewhere so I don't mind the temporary discomfort.
From: Rick Mons Date: Aug. 22 9:57 PM
I've participated on e-Democracy for a number of years. I expect McGaughey to spin. But now he's lying or cannot read when he claims I called blacks "mud people" in his previous posting.
Here's what I actually wrote: "But it's not possible for me to respect views such as these:
*(We are) not interested in the future or welfare of the mud races, and shuns race-mixing or any social intercourse whatsoever with the inferior mud races.” (see http://bit.ly/bLhFUF)
Does McGaughey wish to retract his charge and acknowledge it is a lie? That would be honorable but unlikely.
McGaughey also writes: However Mons and others assume that because I advocate dignity for white males (or for white people) that I must hate blacks. I must be a racist. Never wrote that and McGaughey cannot provide a quote where I said he "must hate blacks." Another fabrication that transcends "spinning."
As to McGaughey being racist, I've pointed out his use of two campaign slogans (the last being 'White Dignitist"). I think those pander to racists and have said so. Whether McGaughey is a racist or simply trying to appeal to racists by his quotes is something only he can answer. The best he can claim is that he's not a racist but uses slogans which pander to racists. He acknowledged as much when he writes using the slogan in his Louisiana campaigns would look like "pandering to southern racists." (see http://bit.ly/b4N6DG).
From: Wizard Marks Date: Aug. 22 9:57 PM
W McGaughey: "There is a cowardly herd instinct at work here among three like-thinking posters (one in another forum) Rick Mons, Wizard Marks, and Bill Kahn - who are disturbed by a challenge to their political world view. I have made such a challenge." and again, "Wizard Marks wrote that I am "the comic relief for the silly seasons."
Thank you, Mr. McGaughey for proving my points and further marginalizing yourself. There is no herd instinct going on, and name calling as in " cowardice" is not inappropriate, exactly, but is hugely inaccurate. It is in no way cowardly to disagree with you. E-democracy is designed for debate, but Mr. McGaughey doesn't understand debate. Once upon a time, the Republican Party did understand the mechanics of debate, but, the current MN GOP has lost that understanding and has replaced it with bombast and insult. An unfortunate devolution.
Every age produces comic relief. In the sixties it was Abbie Hoffman and Pat Paulson. Comic relief is a very important part of the seriousness of choosing candidates for public office. We need that. The unfortunate situation is that Mr. McGaughey has no flare for the comic, no sense of timing (timing is everything in comedy), and no facility with the English language which is key to political comedy. All politics is about language, it's uses and misuses.
I cannot speak for Rick Mons or Bill Kahn (and they have no trouble speaking for themselves). I welcome intelligent debate of the issues. Mr. McGaughey, so far, you have not provided any intelligent debate. What you have done is lash out, lie, misconstrue, and otherwise behave like a heavy-footed buffoon.
Perhaps, on this issue, the three of us disagree with what you have to say. However, you have not presented any argument which refutes what each of us have had to say, you merely indulge in insults and lies. That's the current Republican strategy. Yawn.
From: Dann Dobson Date: Aug. 23 5:09 AM
Well make me #4!
Bill McGaughey has called the SPLC "a hate group" and has blasted the ADL/ Anti-defamation league.
Prior to 9/11 I could count the number of anti-Semitic incidents I encountered in my life on one hand, as a Jew growing up in Kentucky.
Well I was in a Sim Senate group 8 years ago when a man, who later tuned out to be the head of the NSM / National Socialist Movement / New American Nazi Party came into that group and wrote that "The Jews were behind 9-11." That started me on a trek to the darkest corners of the Internet when I monitored neo-Nazis and Klansmen.
I founded a group HateWatch, (separate from the SPLC's), where we discovered racists and neo-Nazis posting from Dow Chemical's and Boeing websites.
I personally have witnessed neo-Nazis march in St. Paul and down in Austin. I sat and spoke with one of these pathetic little men at the McDonald's in Dinkytown.
Over the years, I occasionally have seen the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) and The Anti-Defamation League called a "hate group". I want to be very careful here, I am not calling Bill McGaughey a racist or a neo-Nazi, but uniformly everyone who I have seen call the SPLC or the ADL "hate groups" have been themselves bigots, racists and / or neo-Nazis.
By calling the ADL and SPLC "hate groups" Bill McGaughey has chosen to associate himself with the most foul hateful and despicable characters on the Internet.
Personally I find Mr. McGaughey's comments bordering on the anti-Semitic. Of the dozens or hundreds of hate groups In his country, for him to label the SPLC and ADL "hate groups" only gores to show the mans total moral and intellectual bankruptcy.n
From: Bill McGaughey Date: Aug. 23 8:37 AM
Well, we're going round and round on these questions and I do not feel like spending more time on this activity. Sometimes you need to take a stand on principle against the politically prevailing winds. I've done that now. With respect to the latest round of accusations, the answer may lie in rereading the previous postings by me and my critics.
Dann Dobson says that I might be an anti-Semite because I criticize the Southern Poverty Law Center or the Anti-Defamation League - another hateful label thrown into the hopper. Dobson says that I am intellectually and morally bankrupt. I think he is the same. I don’t care what this man thinks. He, too, is part of the problem. Some day humanity will progress beyond Dobson's hateful point of view.
And now Rick Mons calls me a liar or someone who cannot read in claiming that he called blacks "mud people". Who were you referring to, Mons, when you used the term "mud people"? I did not use that term. Was there some other group of people you had in mind?
No, if you did a computer search on the words that I "must hate blacks", you probably would not find an exact match. But wasn’t it the point of your previous postings to suggest that I must be a racist? I don’t expect Mons to answer that question honestly. I ask that whoever is interested in this
controversy might reread Mons' messages and decide what was the point of his argument.
I would also be interested to know whether one reason Mons might want to live in Shoreview is that he would not have too many black neighbors.
Wizard Marks wrote that I am further "marginalizing" myself and that I lack a gift for comedy. All this is in the eye of the beholder. That’s her opinion. It would serve no purpose for me to defend myself against these charges, coming from a different, self-interested point of view. I was not intending to do comedy.
From: Rick Mons Date: Aug. 23 10:03 AM (private posting)
The Minneapolis Star-Tribune says McGaughey is a "racist-sexist bigot unfit to be taken seriously as a political candidate."
So it comes as no surprise that when McGaughey slinks away he leaves lies and fabricated accusations as his spoor. He's demonstrated his ethical lapses and lack of honor -- both will dog him during his next campaign and the countless ones that follow in his quest for elected office.
From: Wizard Marks Date: Aug. 23 2:06 PM
McGaughey: "I would also be interested to know whether one reason Mons might want to live in Shoreview is that he would not have too many black neighbors." This is the kind of garbage that shows the depth of depravity of the writer.
McGaughey runs for public office, but he doesn't have enough sense not to egregiously insult people. Winning hearts and minds--and votes--is apparently not part of his campaign strategy.
You, Mr. McGaughey are repeating a lie you have told on this thread before. Mons never accused you of saying "mud people," nor did he say it. He bulleted it to point out that defending the KKK and other hate groups who say "mud people" is beneath contempt. Yes, they have a perfect right to say it, and we have a perfect right to label the speakers as ignorant, vicious, and dangerous. We also have the right to dismiss their defenders as the same kind of unfortunate misfits without any qualities which could recommend them to the body politic.
I pointed out that calling the Southern Poverty Law Center as a hate group is an egregious lie and anyone with a lick of sense would not do so.
From the evidence of your posts, I'm fairly certain that you want to end this attempted debate because you cannot muster any argument worth debating. The rest of us wind up having to refute your points because you don't have any facts, though you seem to feel the need to repeat untruths as though gotten directly from god.
I must admit, I was wrong in saying you were providing bad comedy. That was a case of mislabeling. 'Tain't funny, McGaughey. In truth, your whole performance
BTW, people move to the suburbs when they have developmentally challenged offspring because services are often more available in the burbs."
From: Bill McGaughey Date: Aug. 23 not sent
It is simply untrue that the Star Tribune ever said that I (William McGaughey) was a “racist-sexist bigot unfit to be taken seriously as a political candidate.” When did such a statement ever appear in that newspaper? Give us a date, please.
To the contrary, a Star Tribune editorial published on October 25, 2009, stated: “Landlord Bill McGaughey is right to question whether targeting ‘problem properties’ rather than criminal conduct itself is either a just or effective crime-fighting strategy.”
It seems that Rick Mons will be forever accusing me generally of “lying” when he is unable to answer my specific arguments.
I think I might have caught Mons in a lie last week when he said that Bob Carney’s unallotment lawsuit came after the successful suit. I did not press that point but merely thanked Mons for acknowledging the “mistake” he had made regarding that point. There seems to be a deeper level of viciousness in Mons’ current approach.
Wizard Marks comes though with more of her malicious name-calling. That is a specialty of hers. Nothing new here.
I guess I am really going to have to knock it off now to get on to more productive concerns. I will respond, however, to past allegations of fact (such as when the Star Tribune was supposed to have called me a “racist-sexist bigot”) if such are presented.
Note: This message was not sent because afer I wrote it I noticed that Rick Mons' message was a private posting and forum rules prevent mentioning its content in the forum's public discussion.
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